Friday, April 20, 2007

Blast from the past !

The following picture was sent to me today reminding me of the long term reasons why the Plaid-Tory coalition would be wrong. 'Make People Matter' was a nalgo (who them ?) campaign that tried to promote unemployment issues in the last Tory reign. I recall many Plaid people thinking it was a good campaign - before they decided to try and grab power by understanding/agreement/ coalition.

Also that my hair was once dark !

Jeff Evans with the handlebar 'tache is the same JE who stood down in favour of P Rodgers on Ynys Mon. Bizzare company we can all keep at times.....


menaiblog said...

Martin, I've canvassed many hundreds of people in Arfon over the last few weeks. Not one of them have mentioned the hysterical vote Plaid get Tory, New Labour election pitch. Not one - I kid you not.

I suppose that if you refuse to go into government with the Tories (which would be logical, since you're ideologically much of a muchness) & you also refuse to do so with us because you hate us, it's a question of how much the Lib Dems & you get between you.

The Lib Dems are obviously a runt party that wants to suck power out of the Labour hog's back tit, & will do what it requires to get their gob firmy fixed onto the said nipple if the mathematics fall into place.

But if it doesn't, & you refuse to play ball, what is one to do? Leave the country without a government for four years?

Cymro said...

I would second Menai on this - duing the campaign, the only people who have raised this issue are the New Labour representatives and candidates. As Menai says, you can't leave Wales without a government for four years!

New Labour refuses to enter coalition with the Tories, which is a bit silly given your free market ideology. Will Welsh Labour shred its last socialist credentials by refusing to enter coalition with Plaid Cymru?

As I've said before, Labour is counting on the Lib Dems winning 6 seats to augment Labour's forecast 25. Then you must be certain of winning a coaition with them, if you want to remain in government. Too much assumption here?

If the Tories agree to support our ideas, then a Plaid-lead coalition is possible. Why do you keep making noise about the bad old days of the 1980s? What has it to do with this Assembly campaign?

Cymro said...

Clause IV: To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

This noble clause was dropped by New Labour in 1995. And that is why we say that New Labour has a shared free market ideology with the Tories. How will Welsh Labour protest to be different?

Aled said...

Nice to see the old menaiblog/cymro double act is back

One and the same person?

I'll let others decide

But as for this line from menai, I've never seen anything more nonsensical even from her alter ego Cymro

"I suppose that if you (Labour) refuse to go into government with the Tories (which would be logical, since you're ideologically much of a muchness)"

Logical not to go into a coalition since ideologically two parties are much of a muchness?????

Unfortunately common sense doesnt appear to come into this argument.

Labour have ruled out a coalition as there are fundamental disagreements between the two parties on core issues.

Plaid Cymru havent ruled out a coalition because they feel they can find some common ground with the Tories or an "understanding"

To put Plaid Cymru spin on it any other way is absolute nonsense.

This is why I will never vote Plaid again. The party I supported all my life has sold out in a sad pursuit of power at all costs.

Plaid Cymru should hang their heads in shame.

And just because it is not raised on doors does not mean it wont be raised at the ballot box.

Plaid Cymru have blown their chance to take power outright in May.

And whats more...they know it...

Cymro said...

Labour abandoned Clause Iv, meaning that they embrace free market ideology. Which is ideologically similar to the Tory party. So how is Plaid Cymru's stance a betrayal? They have said that if the Tories can work in a Plaid-lead coalition, agreeing to our manifesto aims, then we can work with them.

Your position makes little sense. Even if your "defection" to Labour were due to this, a sensible person would have defected for a party with the same socialist aims as Plaid Cymru. New Labour have not been a socialist party since 1995. Your claims of defection have varied wildly in the reasons given over the past weeks.

So there are two answers. Either you were a Plaid voter who has decided that nationalism and national pride are lost causes, and that socialism is not a workable ideology, and therefore defected to Labour. Much more likely, you are, and always have been, a New Labour voter.

Cymro said...

Is Aled on copy paste now? What a sad git. Alun Ffred has been speaking out in local and national forums for all of his political career. And, if you actually can read, I wrote a whole paragraph on what he and Plaid Cymru have done for Arfon and for Wales! I could write an essay if you want?

Cymro said...

Aled, if you can understand polysyllabic words, can you tell me what will happen on May 4th? Labour are forecast to win 25 seats. So won't you have to seek a coalition too?

Plaid Cymru are not planning a coalition with the Tories. We are saying that if the coalition is Plaid-lead, with our manifesto promises delivered, then we would consider that coalition partner.

Cymro said...

Can you tell me where you stand on the following issues (public interview with Huw Lewis AM (Lab)):
1. The decision to go to war in Iraq
I supported the war in Iraq - and rather than rehearse all the same arguments again, I would point people to the recent book from Observer writer, Nick Cohen, on the subject which runs through in great detail the social progressive's case for war. However, I would also say that much of the handling of post-War Iraq, has been disastrous. Not least the American decision to send home the entire Iraqi army.
2. The decision to renew Trident
I think it will be some time before Assembly Members have a decision to make on this, but I backed the decision to renew Trident. Aside from the arguments on deterrent, consider the hard nosed rules of foreign policy. Those who argue on one side that the USA dictates too much on foreign affairs, then want us to disband our armed forces and downgrade our deterrent don't understand how the world works.

Do you believe that the Welsh language should be given official status in Wales? Do you believe that the people of Wales should have the Right to Services in Welsh? Do you believe that the people of Wales should have the right to work through the medium of Welsh? (hedd)
As far as is practical, everyone in Wales should be able to communicate in whichever language they choose in their day-to-day life. But, whichever way you cut it, 80% of people in Wales can't speak Welsh - are you suggesting that we select our future workforce only from the 20% who can?

You mention "services" - does that include business? I would be in favour of businesses, where they can, offering support for workers to take Welsh lessons. I don't favour compulsion on the Welsh language, and I think I'm right in saying that the Welsh Language Board doesn't either. I'm nervous about a rights based approach - but that doesn't mean I'm somehow against the language, I just wish my own attempts at learning had gone better!

I think this tells you everything about New Labour.

Martin Eaglestone said...

"Hate" seems a rather strong word - but there are some fundamentals, like independence that make things difficult.

Funny thing I found quite a few people just today who were concerned at Plaid's potential cuddling up with the Tories.

I think a consistent line, and some straight answers, from Plaid's many leaders would help you - it is not a coalition, but possibly an understaning, or an agreement. Either way it means Nick Bourne et al in power in Wales so that Ieaun can be king ! No thanks.

In the mean time I'l get on with trying to deliver Arfon for Labour -please don't make me return to moderation. As I will probably leave it there until after May 3rd this time , which wouild be a pity.

Cymro said...

I find that threat of moderation to be aimed at stifling debate, Martin. Are you concerned that Clause IV is rearing its head once more? Is it the debate of Labour's potential coalition partners?

Aled said...

Cymro - as I explained many time son here in recent days I am a former Plaid member.

I have named people I campaigned with as a member - how would I know them if I was not?

Im leaving Plaid because they have sold out Wales.

They have given up on the language - posting adverts in English only in a hope to win a few votes.

They have given up on Arfon - failing after 20 years in control locally to do ANYTHING to turn around the economic situation locally in terms of jobs, homes or prospects full stop.

But most of all they have given up on Wales - forming a coalition with the Tories will not only kill off national hope and pride but it will also kill of Plaid Cymru.

And if forming a coalition with the Tories is all they can think about in their grubby little attempts to gain power, I for one shall not shed a tear if this is the outcome.